…and in front of foreigners, no less. At a joint news conference in Turkey with Turkish president Abdullah Gül yesterday, Barack Obama said:
“Although…we have a large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Jewish nation, or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.”
And while that’s a laudable sentiment, I’m sure there are legions of conservatives in America right this very minute asking “Who’s this ‘we’?” Rest assured this soundbite will be played endlessly on talk radio and in upcoming election campaigns.
Obama’s remarks came at the same time as his statement to the effect that America was not at war with Islam. I wonder if Obama was intentionally echoing Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (signed in 1796 between the nascent United States and Tripoli), which states: “As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility, of Musselmen [i.e. Muslims]; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan [i.e. Islamic] nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext, arrising from religion opinions, shall ever produce a disruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Overall, I see Obama’s comments as a good thing. First, he tacks “nonbelievers” onto a laundry list of beliefs during his inaugural speech, and now an explicit declaration that “America is not a Christian nation.” I hope this is an early volley in an ongoing attempt by the administration to re-insert in Americans’ minds the concept of America as a secular nation of laws, not a pure democracy in which the majority religious view can ride roughshod over the rest.
Tags: barack obama, christian nation, turkey
yeah, the religious right will totally use this against him, but hopefully the religious people who voted for him the first time won’t take it against him next go round…
~Dan
Is he trying to disarm opposition by moving in baby steps?
He *is* a politician, after all…
Dennis
This is a terrific step. He at least has the grapes to state what is technically still US law as expressed in the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797.
Of course, CNN is running a big piece today on his family choosing a church. As someone who does not believe in coincidences…
Regardless of Obama’s mistakes (if there are any, he very calculated) I love this guy. I got what I voted for.
I was concerned after the inaugural but he is starting to restore my confidence in him. It sometimes takes incredible nerve to state the simple facts.
Perhaps it would serve each of us well to actually read the hand written documents of our founding fathers rather than take the edited, left wing version of history, that is force fed to every school aged child, as truth. Anyone person claiming that America was not founded on Christian beliefs is regrettably lacking in historical knowledge. The documents are there for you to read. Take the time to do so before making erroneous conclusions that are based solely on your own personal desires. you’re right Rob you are getting what you voted for… unfortunately so am I.
Kenny,
The erroneous conclusion is to equate American culture with its form of government. Yes, the early colonists were for the most part Christian, many of them devoutly so. But the form of government they created is deeply pragmatic and devoid of religious content. Had they wanted, they could have dedicated the Constitution to “Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” or declared Christianity the official religion, or rejected the 1st Amendment. So, American culture may have been founded on Christian beliefs, but our government was most decidedly NOT.
Thanks,
John
John,
Pragmatism doesn’t exclude Christianity. However i do agree that the men involved in the design of our government did so in a way that expressly avoided the promotion of a particular religion. Do you think another grievous error would be to completely disregard the intent of our founders? Start with the Declaration of Independence and read all the documents in their original form. Read the complete Patrick Henry speach…he said much much more than “give me liberty or give me death” (which by the way was the only portion of his speech that i was taught in school).
Sincerely,
Kenny
Kenny,
Certainly, it is interesting to read what the Founders thought, how they lived, and what they believed–it helps us to understand history better, and thereby understand ourselves.
That said, there is only one document the Founders left us that has any legal standing: the Constitution. It is the supreme law of the land to which our elected officials swear an oath to defend. The Declaration is interesting, but it is not a document with legal standing. Besides, aren’t you being awfully selective about interpreting the intent of our Founders? Clearly, their intent was to enslave Africans, dispossess the Indians, and ignore the obvious intelligence and dignity of women. Lucky for us the Founders put a relief valve in the Constitution: the amendment process. Thus we have been able to ignore and override the sometimes poor intent of the Founders to our mutual benefit. And if they had foolishly inserted language into the Constitution that DID make this a “Christian nation,” we’d be able to amend it and correct that misguided intent.
Finally, I believe you are making one of the most common errors that I run into: equating the Founders with Saints, and misconstruing secular documents for scriptures. Just because James Madison wrote something in a letter, or deliver an impassioned speech, doesn’t mean he was right or that I should give it any credence. I do not look to George Washington to tell me what to think about separation of church and state anymore than I look to John Adams for what to think on women’s rights or Thomas Jefferson for what to think on the rights of black people.
So…I’m glad the Founders had the brains to give us the Constitution. It’s not a perfect document, but it’s a magnificent piece of work. The fact that they were also Christians is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. I live my life by my own judgment, not by subverting myself to the thoughts of people 200 years dead.
Thanks,
John
good answer…..but i know they weren’t saints and i know they were misguided in many of they’re cultural beliefs just as many people are today. Certainly their thoughts and writings are no more correct than yours or mine…However it was the thoughts and writings of these men that our nation was based upon. I’m glad to be an American
I salute you John.
Kenny
If we are a ‘nation of citizens with a set of ideas and values,’ where are those ideals and values derived from? If from the constitution or some of our other founding documents, where were those ideals and values derived from? The ideals and values of Islamic Law or Saudia Arabian laws/ideals or India’s ideas and values are quite different from ours. Why is this? Is there any basis for our ideals and values? If so, does the basis for those ideals and values define us as a nation?
I suspect Obama’s ‘ideals and values’ are not formed from the basis of the ideals and values that formed our country’s legal and guiding documents. I suspect that Obama’s ideals and values are quite different from George Washington’s, Thomas Jefferson’s, John Adam’s or Abraham Lincoln’s; and I am confident that the basis of his ideals and values is different than theirs.
Rick,
I’m glad you asked! The Founders were inspired by a variety of Enlightenment thinkers, and driven by the hope that government could be instituted that did not rely on the Divine Right of Kings or the whims of priests and preachers.
And you’re right, Obama’s values are different from Washington’s, Jefferson’s, John Adam’s and Abraham Lincoln’s–Obama believes that non-whites have rights, that women are the equals of men, and that homosexuals are deserving of dignity and respect.
John
Obama supports a new form of slavery. For 30 years i have worked an average of 72 hours a week and my idea of a vacation was a Saturday and Sunday off…I did this by choice of course, working diligently to build a company to support my family and the families of my 50 to 100 employees. In the mean time many of my friends were living the good life..40 hour weeks, weeks of vacation and other benefits. I’m happy for them because they live the life they chose. The problem is that with the democratic/liberal way of doing things I am to share what I worked so hard to accomplish with people that were at home watching Oprah while I was working. I certainly believe that i am obligated, and it is indeed my duty, to help those that need help. Thats why i give to homeless shelters and provide food to the hungry. Thats why I’m very active in a church that helps not only its members but anyone with a need.
There is a sect of Americans that support taking from the person doing the work to give to the person that has no idea what it means to make sacrifice. I find it impossible to rationalize this train of thought. Taking from the hard laborer and giving to the lazy?…….a new form of slavery. Few people that are in serious financial need, if any, have gotten up at 2:30 in the morning and worked for 12 to 13 hours 6 or 7 days a week. I did that and still found time to attend church and coach each of my 3 children in various sports.
John…all people are deserving of love and compassion however reprehensible behavior deserves neither dignity nor respect. You seem to be an educated man. perhaps therein lies the problem.
Kenny,
Well, the Founders believed in taxation, too. There’s no other way to spin a tax than to say it’s the gummint taking from them what has and giving to them what hasn’t. The difference between Obama and the Founders is a matter of degrees. Last I heard, Obama was proposing changing the marginal rate on the highest earners from 36% to 39%. So I have no idea what this new form of slavery might be.
John,
Taxation is a necessary means by which we support our infrastructure. Work is a necessary means by which we support ourselves. As for the new form of slavery….If you own a company you’ll understand by the end of 09. Which is the same time that i will not be able to give yearly bonuses to my employees in order to afford my taxes. I’ll bet those bonuses would have benefited my employees and the economy. If you don’t own your own company….stay tuned it will come to you eventually.
We are not a Christian nation. We are a nation founded on the principles found in the bible and the 10 Commandments. I have a question for you guys; is it Ok for us to foster a relationship with other countries such as Muslim countries who believe in suppressing the rights of people / citizens and adhering to a code of religious ethics (i.e. the Quran) that teaches hate, murder and suppression.
Is it OK for our president to read from the Quran as he did this morning in Egypt? I will tell you this, he would not dare read the bible in a Muslim country, or quote from our forefathers, why; all HELL would break loose because he would be disrespecting their religion and people. People disrespect us all day long and nothing is said. It’s called FREEDOM of SPEECH. We have become a nation of sleeping idiots opening ourselves to suppression and control.
Why don’t you gentlemen speak out against the Muslim faith the Quran a work that teaches to kill and hate those who do not believe it? I have studied the Quran for 10 years and believe me, true Muslims; radical and non-radical believe what the Quran says.
This is what amazes me……..individuals can come to America and have the same freedoms we have freedom of speech, freedom to exercise their beliefs, yet they hate us, our ways, lifestyles and who we are; yet it is the Christian faith in which our forefathers believed in that gives you and I the right to blog. The freedom our forefathers fought and died for, it is this very freedom that will open the door of destruction and demise in America. Look around you……it is taking place now.
Someone wrote, Muslims (especially non-Western ones) view the United States as a Christian nation, and therefore the most powerful rival to their faith. The Muslim mind cannot conceive of religion apart from political realities. For Islam the kingdom of Allah must in the end become the unrivaled kingdom of this world. Since the United States is not in the fold of Islamic nations, it is labeled as Christian and thus seen as an adversary to be opposed. (of course with Obamas mindset speech today that may change)
By the way try and speak out in a Muslim country as we are today in this blog and see what happens. You better thank the God of our forefathers for this precious freedom.
In closing and with all opinions aside, feed on this; my profession takes me into all walks of life and religions around the world. Over the past 12 months during meetings and discussion with over 500 Muslims in America and abroad here is the common denominator………..America and its people are turning into nothing more than a weak people, we are giving the Muslim world / whole world the impression we no longer stand for what we have since the birth of this nation; instead we are now a nation of compromising people, apologizing and subservient.
A true Muslim respects strength, honor and dedication to ones belief no matter how they believe. I want us to be a nation of remedies and peace. A nation seeking to help; not harm, a nation of justice for all mankind and a place where you can work and live without fear of reprimand.
I want to live in a nation that is strong, a place where the people are protected from harm, their rights to freedom are guarded; a country that is strong in policy and does not give into to fear and intimidation. I want an America that is strong in her defenses and is unwavering when tried and tested.
When threatened I want an America like that of mother Lion; her instinct to protect her young rises to the occasion; she repels the forces of those who come against her, her territory her and those she defends. I want America strong; I want this country to be known for who she truly is; a nation of truth, justice and this may sound old fashion, but a country known for its American way. Remember this; at the end of the day a strong nation is respected, a weak one is mocked and its people controlled. May God less all of you; my God bless America
Ray,
Thanks for your comments. I won’t bother to address your specious claim that America is a Christian Nation. That’s been addressed before a million times, and firmly established that our form of government is completely and thoroughly secular. Moving on…
What choice does America have but to foster relationships with Muslim countries? Having a relationship doesn’t mean uncritical acceptance of every belief and policy. So, yes, we must maintain relationships with these countries, but they have to be balanced by all considerations. Are you willing to invade, conquer and re-educate the citizen of every Muslim country? (I thought not.) In that case, we have to accept that not everything overseas will be perfect, nor will it fit perfectly with American sensibilities. All that said, I have often criticized our Muslim allies in this blog (just search for “with allies like these” and you’ll come up with several entries in which I point out how the US is tolerating unconscionable actions by countries that are supposed to be our close allies).
(Besides, who has fostered a closer relationship with an oppressive Muslim regime that Bushes Sr. and Jr.??? How can we possible say that Barack Obama is equivocating unless we first explain the uncritical handholding by the Bushes toward the Saudis?)
You mention the president “reading from the Quran”…I assume you are referring to his quoting from the Quran in his Cairo speech? If so, you probably also heard that he quoted from the New Testament as well as the Torah. I don’t think he got arrested for that (in fact there was healthy applause when he quoted from the Beatitudes). But you are absolutely right that freedom of speech does not exist in many, if not most, Muslim nations, and that is something we need to encourage them to change.
Now, does Obama’s speech today send a signal that America is weak, compromising, apologetic, and subservient? Time will tell. What we can say for certain is that the policies of the former administration were a complete disaster. Somebody once said that doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity. We’ve tried invading them, bombing them and torturing them and we saw what a group hug that was. Maybe now we can try something else.
Thanks again,
John
Am I the only Non-Christian here who actually believes that Obama is HORRIBLE for this country? Do you all remember that speech Obama made about the importance of less government and more individual responsibility and having freedom from bigger government?
….me neither.
OMG What the heck,my friends are say that hes changing America, In a bad way
and i agree with them